Podcasting's Death is Greatly Exaggerated, Right?

Mark (: 00:02

Hello and welcome to the inaugural episode of In and Around Podcasting, the inclusive podcast industry show, where we highlight powerful podcasting perspectives. And today we're delivering on our promise. We're going to talk about whether or not the podcast industry is dead, the monetization opportunities that we see still kicking around for people that don't have tens of thousands of downloads per episode. Plus, we've got some stupid stuff. It'd be rude to leave out the stupid stuff. We've got a WAV file.

the ages, a flattering ram that is sure to flatter. And of course, we are going to talk about all, I suppose all things whimsical when it comes to podcasting. So we're very, very excited to be here for this first episode and we are delivering. We want to get hold of amazing industry insiders, plus independent podcasters. And our first guest co-host today straddles both of those arenas perfectly and helps everyone to achieve their podcasting goals. So I'm going to

I'm going to I'm going to big her up no more than she needs because she's fantastic over on Twitter. She's amazing at what she does. And I'm excited to bring her on in just a second. But before I do that, Danny, for anyone that's watching this on YouTube, you're on holidays, we're recording this, mate. And you've worn a Hawaiian shirt. Like, is that on purpose?

Verity (: 01:05

Aww, thank you.

Danny I @DannyBrownCA (: 01:23

You know, I had a T-shirt on earlier and I sat down as about to join and it clashed. I mean, this still clashes with my background, but the previous one really clashed. No, no. And it was green as well. So I could imagine people putting some crappy stuff on there, like a green screen trick. So I thought, nope, not going to do that.

Mark (: 01:40

We are green screen in you. This is 100% next time we are green screen in you, man. I love that. I love that. I'm excited for that, which leads me to telling you that you can get this show, of course, anywhere that you get your podcasts at in and around podcasting.com slash listen, or you can find it on the old YouTube. Our very modern of us on the old YouTube. And you'll be able to see Danny's Hawaiian shirt and do what you want in Photoshop or with some green screen on that one. Do send your finest creations to at in around.

Danny I @DannyBrownCA (: 01:44

Ha ha ha.

Mark (: 02:09

that in around podcast over on Twitter. Now, without further ado, let's get to the main topic and our wonderful guest, co-host. I first met our co-host over on Twitter and she's actually, this is not by design. She is actually a Captivate user, but more importantly, she helps creatives, she helps podcasts to achieve their goals with her project, her fantastic, helpful podcast and the guide that she runs around it, the lazy goals guide to podcasting, it is...

Verity song gone. Welcome to the show.

Verity (: 02:41

Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited. I've got the kids in front of Bluey. I feel like I've almost got, you know, 45 minutes to myself and I get to talk about podcasting. So thank you very much for having me.

Mark (: 02:52

Oh, you've achieved freedom. Blue is freedom.

Verity (: 02:55

It is, it is in our house. And it still saddens me that people, Cough, Danny, haven't watched an episode of it yet because you're missing out. That's all I'm saying.

Mark (: 03:04

That's the task for the week off, Danny, is to get through Bluey's on Disney Plus. Get on there to hear that's content.

Verity (: 03:09

There's only three seasons, 150 odd episodes. Can you tell how often I've watched this now? Ha ha!

Danny I @DannyBrownCA (: 03:12

Thanks for watching!

Mark (: 03:13

What? My kids are 26 minutes and 14 seconds into episode 74, from what I can hear. That's how familiar you get.

Verity (: 03:23

You'd be surprised. Yeah, I can memorize a lot of the episodes. I think we should get off this because it sounds like I need therapy.

Mark (: 03:32

Oh, no, I've got I sympathize. I've got Peppa Pig syndrome at the minute with my little girl. So I'm completely on board with that one. But we should probably get on to podcasting, I guess. I suppose let's move into podcasting. But I want to do what everyone else does at the end first. So Verity, tell us a little bit about what you do and tell us in particular where people can connect with you online. Let's get that done first, because no one listens to the end.

Verity (: 03:38

Fair enough. Let's.

Hehehe

Verity (: 03:53

Absolutely. So I host the Lazy Girls Guide to podcasting and you can find me at VeritySongon on Twitter, on Instagram. If you want to connect with me the most I would say Twitter because Instagram people go, oh I messaged you on Instagram. I'm like yeah I haven't checked it in like a week, I'm really sorry. I do post stuff on there but I'm not as active as I possibly should be. But what I do is the Lazy Girls Guide to podcasting, 10-15 minute episodes, we just take something...

a question about podcasting, a how-to, and we just deliver that weekly in 10, 15-minute bursts. We keep everything simple because we can't overcomplicate it because it's me.

Mark (: 04:28

Oh, I get that as well. We create a podcasting platform for people that are basically me and a bit lazy. So I want to do everything in one place and make sure everything's sort of done for me. So I completely understand that, which is fantastic. So, Danny, you wanted to talk about, I suppose, the future and the past of podcast monetization. You saw something knocking around us that's got you interested this week as our main topic before we get to some of our segments. So what's eating you, mate? What's going on?

Danny I @DannyBrownCA (: 04:58

Yeah, well, we all know a lot of podcasters ask about monetization and looking to monetize whether the show, however they do that. And we see various pieces of advice online, some good, some not so good, and some in between. And there was a report that got published by KS&R called Podcasts are Replacing Traditional Media Consumption. And I think James maybe have shared that in one of the pod newsletters. So I clicked over, I read it, and it was real interesting to show that especially younger consumers of content.

So maybe they Gen Z, not Gen Z, been in Canada too long, but we say Gen Z in Canada too. So I'm not sure why I said that. Anywho, so younger content consumers especially are moving away from what's traditionally been taken attention away from podcasts. So video games, you've got music streaming, streaming TV, and Blu-E, et cetera. And instead of doing that now, 20% and upwards are now moving over to podcasts. And because of that...

They've turned into almost super listeners or super followers, where they'll really dedicate time to listen to their favorite podcast, share, recommend, support, et cetera. And so the KSNR report was really interesting. You know, looking, diving deeper into that. So it just made me think that this is the kind of stuff that when you hear people say, well, podcasting is doomed, or you're not a proper podcast, or if you're not making loads of money, you've got hundreds of thousands downloads, et cetera. I wanted to really talk about that, because we see all the time, Captivate.

I see it online and read it. There is, I know you've spoken before about various monetization options, especially recently with a merch episode. So I thought that'd be a good one to talk about because it's in the news all the time. We see it all the time. So it seemed a good topic just to clear up and help podcasters understand about that.

Mark (: 06:43

One of those interesting perspectives, I think, and I want to I want to really kind of deliver on the in and around podcasting promise, which is to take reports like this and to take some of the context around these reports. You know, we've seen the reports around podcasting is dead and the investments aren't paying off and actually deliver what that means for the indie creator as much as what it might mean for the big publishers. You know, whether that is global or whether it's evergreen or whoever that might be.

actually try and toe the line with these two things. And I think personally, the industry is so it's been divided for such a long time because there's one element of it that is media, it's big media, it's IP driven media that's driven by impressions and the supply and demand of quality episodes delivered to a programmatic marketplace and so on and so forth and whatever at that level. But then like there's this area of podcasting that's not really changed ever since I've been in it, you know, it's not changed for 12, 13 years as I can remember, which is

Here I'm in my bedroom. I've got all my Star Wars gear in the back. I, you know, give us a fiver. That's that just hasn't changed. So very to the people that you tend to work with. How do they? I don't know if you know this or whether you've got an insight on it, because it's a bit of an odd question. How do you have you got any insight into how they sort of feel when they see things like the podcasting industry struggling and so on and so forth? Because you're helping people.

Have you seen any resistance to start in a podcast? Have you seen people coming to you and saying, actually, I'm a little bit worried about starting now because I'm seeing these reports. Like, what's that landscape feel like to you?

Verity (: 08:20

Yeah, no, absolutely. And it's funny because I had a conversation with somebody just recently where people, the people within the conversation, they were saying, you know, is there any point in starting a podcast? And I was like, well, only if you're interested in the medium, if you want to be part of the medium, because if you don't, then I mean, we've all listened to podcasts where people have created those podcasts just because it was the in thing to do or somebody suggested it to them. And you can tell that they've got no interest in the actual podcast.

you know, kind of said to them and said, well, what would you do instead of a podcast? Oh, well, I do a YouTube channel. I'm like, well, there's nothing wrong with doing a YouTube channel. Absolutely. But let's look at the stats of, first of all, let's look at the stats of like how many YouTube channels are there? How many podcasts are there? Active YouTube channels, active podcasts, um, for example. But then I also turned around to them. I said, but they're two very different beasts.

And the person said, well, what, what do you mean? Surely it's, it's creating content. And I was like, well, you've kind of got to decide, are you a podcast first that happens to be on YouTube or are you a YouTuber and doing video first and you just happen to then have the audio, which is a podcast, because if you're trying to kind of do both, but not really do either, then you're not really

your strategy is not going to really work. So then this is where I think a lot of this argument comes with podcasting is dead is because I think that there are a lot of people who have tried with podcasting, maybe they have been part of the, you know, statistical 80% or whatever it is that, you know, don't get past episode three or what have you. And maybe podcasting didn't work for them. But then one of the things that I'm really interested in, I'm such a strategy girl, everything for me is strategy.

And people get fed up of hearing me say the word strategy sometimes I think, but it's this idea of, if you start anything, I think, then you aren't gonna see the success. And I'm saying success in inverted commas because I do believe that success is gonna look different for different people. And it's that idea that unless you do have a plan, unless you do have a strategy, then...

Verity (: 10:25

you're not going to see that success. And I think you're then going to continue to feed into the narrative of, well, yeah, podcasting is dead because it didn't work for me. It didn't work for Joe Bloggs or whoever. I didn't immediately become the next, I was going to say Seth Rogen then, no, Joe Rogen, very different person. I didn't become the next Joe Rogen within a week. So what was the point? And I think that just feeds that narrative.

Mark (: 10:53

Yeah, the, I think the, like the guru hangover is real. And we've seen this, you know, we've seen this a lot in, I saw it like 2015, 2016, where it was, podcasting was still touted and marketed as the way to get rich, you know, it's, here's how, and this is very American, but here's how you can get to six figures using a podcast. And, you know, I sort of get that. I do sort of get that, but.

Verity (: 10:59

Mm.

Mark (: 11:21

To bring it back to your point, Danny, around this report, you know, super fans can be monetized. We've seen that, you know, everything from like people like Pat Flynn back in the day writing the book, super fans. But also where you see people like under the course, you might see people like my therapist ghost of me and whatever else that are making money from paying subscribers every single month. And we do that with Spark Rebellion to a degree. And we've got those features at Captivate.

That whole Kevin Kelly thing, the thousand true fans, like we know that is a concept. We know that that's a thing. But I feel that to get someone to become a super fan is amazing and that like the really, you can genuinely make some money through fixed price sponsorships. You can do direct sales to them. We can do merch and everything else that goes alongside it. But that nurturing process, and I'm thinking about the indie creators listening who are seeing this report at the top level and thinking, well, that's great.

But Joe Rogan's got super fans. How do I get them? That nurturing process from here's my trailer through to, you know, listening to as many episodes as it takes. And moving up to being a super fan. Danny, that is that's probably a longer process than. I suppose any other channel that I can think of, certainly.

Danny I @DannyBrownCA (: 12:39

Yeah. And I think that ties into what Verity was saying about the long-term vision. You know, you have to have a long-term plan. And I feel that's where a lot of gurus is led new podcasters astray by saying, Hey, you'll get 10,000 downloads in week one because everybody's into podcast and everybody wants to listen to podcasting. And I think if you do want to do something properly, I always speak about when you're a baby, you can't walk. And when you learn to walk, you can't run. When you learn to run, you can't sprint. You know, everything's.

this little pathway that you have to take if you want to be an elite athlete, for example. So it does, it definitely will take longer and does take longer to get to that super fan. But in the meantime, you can have your fly by followers, you can have your occasional followers, you can have your enthusiastic followers and whatever else you want to put in front of the word followers, you can, you can have them that help you as you go and as you grow within that, that sort of podcasting journey that gets you from follower one.

to follower 5 to 15 etc. And as these people start following and recommending you, more come on. So it does start to take shape into that super follower path that you're looking for I feel.

Mark (: 13:54

When we think about, you know, turning people into super fans, how does that sit against the, I suppose, the more traditional thinking? When I think about, you know, when I got into podcasting and there was all, you know, this is, this is inevitable. It's always been the case, you know, if you want to make money, you can sell things on the back end, products, courses, live event tickets, whatever else merchandise. There's nothing new about that, but it's always new to someone. You know, if someone is getting into podcasting, it's the first content channel. At some point.

will hear that and it will be new to them. So I never sort of, I never think that's, that's dated advice. It just, it's just not new advice because it will be new to someone at any given time. Someone hearing this for the first time today will be someone that is new to today. But when I got into podcasting back in the day, it was very much, you can't get sponsors without 10,000, 20,000 downloads. And that seems to have been perpetuated a lot, even now. And I would say maybe, maybe even more so.

Because it's become media, because it's you know, we live in the world of Joe Rogan and we live in the world of the big network publisher shows that are getting these figures from day dot because they've got budgets. But that's what scares off the Indies. That's what really terrifies people because it feels when you put all these ingredients together, okay. Podcasting is now a big deal. There are so much more of them. I'm hearing that I can only get sponsorships at this figure and

How am I going to compete with all these celebrities getting into the mix and so on? Like all the ingredients are there for more despair than they were 10 years ago. Before it was just like, it's a hobby. OK, is that all it is? That what it takes? And then they learn, actually, I can direct sell and do other stuff. But how does that? Thinking, you know, this idea that I can monetize through super fans, I can monetize through like direct sales or other ways to monetize. How does that compare to the old school thinking? But did you ever?

come across this old fashioned thinking of, well, let's not even think about monetizing until you get to 10, 20,000 downloads an episode. Is that something that you see with the people that you sort of work with?

Verity (: 15:59

I wouldn't say it's necessarily a number. It's normally, I would say the first thing about monetization that people tend to ask me is around how many downloads do I need? So it's almost like the precursor to the question of how can I get sponsorships? It's I know that there are numbers involved. What are those numbers? And the thing that I always ask people in return as well is, is sponsorship right for your podcast? Is it right for your?

audience, because I think sometimes, and I was, when I say sometimes, I mean, probably about 90, 95% of the time, the conversations that I have with people are that sponsorship is the only way to monetize your podcast. And that has not been my experience at all. I will actually tell you my, the most profitable way that I make money from my podcast is speaking about.

podcasting, which I just find absolutely ludicrous that people pay me money to talk about podcasting. Like if you told me that a few years ago, I'd be like, really? People are going to pay me to do that. Um, and this is what I say to people is it's not just about sponsorships. I've explored sponsorships myself. I dunno, maybe I'm not doing it right. Maybe I need someone to coach me in sponsorships on podcasts, but there was just something about it, which I just didn't feel really fitted the ethos of my show, so it just wasn't something that I overly pursued.

And I think that whenever people speak to me about sponsorships and, you know, how do I sponsorship my episode? That doesn't even work as a sentence, does it? But how do I, you know, get my, I can't really can't talk. You wouldn't think that I do podcasting, would you? But whenever people come to me and they say, you know, how do I go about getting sponsorships?

As I said, a lot of the time it's that question of, well, is that going to work for your show? Is that going to work for your audience? And also where are you getting these sponsors from? Is it any Tom, Dick and Harry who will sponsor something for your podcast? And by the way, I have experienced that before. I have had adverts for nerds. Do you know nerds, those little sweets? Yeah, we're nodding, okay. Yeah, I've had nerds sponsored in my podcast episodes before. And it was kind of at that point where I thought, hmm.

Mark (: 18:04

Oh yeah.

Verity (: 18:13

Generalized sponsorship isn't for me. And I'm not saying I'd never go back to sponsorship, but what I'm saying is there has to be strategy behind it. It has to work for you and your audience. And I think going back to what you were saying about the numbers, I have had conversations with people and they're like, well, what's the point of even getting started? Because I'm never gonna reach these numbers. Or if I do reach these numbers, it's gonna be in X amount of time and I want to monetize now.

And then you kind of start thinking, well, why are you starting the podcast in the first place? And it comes back to that strategy. Are you sharing a message? Are you teaching people? Is it primarily for monetization? And it really, it comes back, I think, to those core questions and those core values of, well, what is it that your podcast is even about? And what is that roadmap looking like? At which point people tend to go, Verity, I just want to record a first episode. But yeah, so I think it's...

It's one of those questions and one of those conversations that I think always produces more questions than people expect it to.

Mark (: 19:19

Yeah, that's one of the elements that requires thoughtful work and just general thoughtfulness anyway, and that leads to the strategy. And I think personally, I guess the mission of the show really, you know, a lot of these reports are really not necessarily targeted, but they'd certainly do service.

bigger shows a lot more and a lot more readily, just because they've got the numbers. If you put 100,000 downloads in and a conversion rate is whatever 1%, you're going to get a far better result from that show than you are from someone that gets 100 downloads per episode. And that's just simple math. And so whilst these reports, I think, are all industry level, it can be quite off-putting, because that's a really positive report. 20% uplift, it's great data. It shows a real.

went overlaid with like some of the Edison stuff that we've seen. You know, we know that brand recalls really highlight whatever it was. Seventy three percent brand recall. We know all of this adds up to a really good thing for the industry. But there are a lot of people that don't feel like the part of the industry. And that's what this shows about and so on and so forth to help everyone. Coming back to sponsorship, you know, I get an advert for nerds. That's maybe a programmatic spot that I've sold and it's that's cool. It's it matches the categories. I probably get 10 pence for it. If that.

that daddy I know from your side that is a bit of a bug barrier yours it's a bit it comes across as a bit of an elitist a little bit of a little bit of a bit elite thinking a bit more of a mindset challenge around you know well if you don't have these downloads and you're not monetizing through spot programming and spot advertisement then are you a real podcaster like I know you man you're an angry Scottish guy with this thing

Danny I @DannyBrownCA (: 21:03

Yeah, I've seen podcasters before, one in particular, we won't name because we don't do that. But I've seen podcasters before, be very vocal and get to the point of being angry when talking to podcasters about the way you've got to think like a business. Otherwise don't start a podcast. Going back to your point very to where people have told you what's the point of starting because of hearing that kind of advice. And that annoys me because you're putting people off doing what they're interested in, what they're probably passionate

you're taking that opportunity away from them just because you've reached a level of success over X amount of years. But you had to get there as well. And because you've reached that now and you're inside the industry and you're seeing all this stuff, you're thinking, well, you have to think like a business person. You have to put in this amount of budget every month to market your show. You have to do X, Y, Z. And you don't. Yes, it can help down the line, but you don't have to do it right away. If you like swimming, I don't like swimming. I do it, but I don't like it. But anywho.

I go to the swimming pool because I enjoy that. I go with the kids. We have a good time. I pay for that to enjoy spending time with my kids. Now, I kind of take that really flimsy, tenuous join here, but I don't do the swimming to become a swimming instructor. I don't do the swimming to get a job and make money from my enjoyment of swimming. So if I start a podcast, it's because I do it because I want to enjoy it. I'm interested. I don't care about maybe making money right off. Would it be nice? I'm sure it would.

But I want to see if I enjoy it first. So to hear people say, well, you're not a podcaster if you don't do this right away, that does. We should look at a new segment, the angry Scotsman segment or something.

Mark (: 22:45

We can get some music for that one. Definitely, definitely, definitely. It's one of those interesting problems, isn't it? Because that's like sort of being in a gym, right? And doing certain exercises with certain weights and rep ranges. And someone coming up to you and saying, that's not gonna be effective. The problem with that is that the person saying that, mapping what you're doing to their goals. And then they've not asked, okay, what are you training for?

Oh, okay. Yeah, that probably will be effective for that. It's very different to what I'm training for. So what I find that sort of elitist mindset to be very similar to that in the, you know, if you want the business level results from your podcast, then you have to treat it like a business. You aren't going to get deep and big profitability. If you don't put the five, six, seven, eight hours a day into a business, you aren't because there's just, there's just not enough time for it to work. It's a simple thing, but

If I want to sit down and talk about Star Wars and the goal might be to get some merch, it might be to go to an event, to a conference, build a community and just have a nice time talking about it. Do I need a marketing budget? Do I even need to market it? No, I'm not really bothered because I just, my outcome is to want to talk about the thing that I talk about. So I do find that a bit of a, a bit of an arrogant and off putting approach. And it's that, that is the kind of thing that can put Indies off. And I suppose it comes back related to that. You know,

that notion earlier on of just, you know, what are you doing this for? And I feel that in order to get to that idea of here, let's get these super fans. Whenever you get to a point where you would identify wanting to get those super fans, that might be a year after you've started or it might be day one. It doesn't matter when you get to the point that you are serious. That's when the strategy comes in. It's not just recording for fun, is it? It's actually we need a bit of a plan.

Verity (: 24:38

I think absolutely. And I think what's it just, it's that idea of just what is your why, why have you started? And I mean, when I first started my first podcast, I had a newborn at home. And the reason I started my podcast was I just wanted something to do on maternity leave to be quite honest with you that wasn't.

baby related and it was very much a hobby. And then it became a hobby that got a little bit out of control and here we are, however many years later now. And it is, I think it really comes back to that idea. I mean, I wasn't looking at monetizing when I first started that podcast. I literally was interested in the medium and just wanted something to do when the baby was asleep that had nothing to do with cleaning the house. And

I think also it's funny because as you were talking then about, you know, monetizing and having that strategy and what have you, and I, I've just, um, thought back to Stephen Bartlett diary of the CEO. We've all heard of it by this stage, unless we're living under a rock, regardless of if we listen to it or not. But I always think when people are talking about monetization as well.

And they're like, you know, we need these big budgets like Steven Bartlett. And somebody even said to me recently, how do I get the marketing for my podcast down so that I'm on all of these platforms like Steven Bartlett? And I said, well, hang on a minute. First of all, you don't even have a podcast yet because you haven't started recording anything. And also he puts tens of thousands into his episodes. His, his is a very, very well oiled machine at this point. But I think it's really.

easy to forget that if you click on something like diary of a CEO or, you know, any of the huge podcasts that are out there and you scroll all the way back to episode one, I think people forget how long these podcasts have been going for. And going back to your point earlier about building up super fans, they haven't built up these super fans in the last six, nine months. You know, they've been going for years and years and years in a lot of cases, you know, they've been going well before.

Verity (: 26:38

the individuals became celebrities or became household names or, you know, were also on TV or whatever else it is. And I think that, like I said, I think a lot of people forget that just to go back to your point before, as I said about building up super fans is it is a long, it is a long process in podcasting, unless you happen to have a name, you know, and a fan base behind you already. Like we know when Katie Price started her podcast last year, that immediately did really well.

But again, that woman has spent the last, like her or hate her, she has spent the last, like, what, over 20 years building up her fan base. So there's a reason why podcasts who have almost immediate fan bases have that, because the fan base has built itself up over time. And I think for new podcasters that often gets forgotten that there's always leg room or leg work that's happened beforehand.

when it comes to building up those listenerships.

Mark (: 27:39

Yeah, and I would just kind of highlight the fact that actually there are a lot of celebrity shows that launch, you know, for every one show that launches with an inbuilt audience. So let's say they've got a million people for argument, say that's their entire reach. And we migrate over five percent of it. If I get 50,000 people listening to each episode, that's a really good result. But for every one of those celebrities, there's a celebrity or three or four celebrities that have got the same level of reach. And whose podcast doesn't get that? There is. There really is.

Um, so I would even say it's not as clear cut for even for celebrities these days, because there's a lot that goes into that. The demographic has to be right. It has to be the topic has to be, um, Enhancing their brand enough that the listener wants to migrate over to a new channel and get something that they've maybe not got before from that person. So there's a lot, there's a lot more to it than just, you know, I am celebrity. We saw this in COVID, like I am celebrity. I has podcast.

It just doesn't it just doesn't work like that anymore. So, yeah, really interesting point and great, great talking point to bring up, Danny, because I think it's important. Again, one of the missions, this is the inaugural episode, so I don't mind mentioning it a couple of times, but the mission is let's equalize all of us in podcasting. You know, I don't want people listening and creating the bedroom shows and they make up the vast majority of podcasts. I never want anyone to see a report like that and think, oh, that's it. That's me done.

it will happen. We see all the time, oh, that's me. That's it. I can never do that because it's for the big shows, you know, 20% of my audience. Is that it? Is that? No, it's not going to happen. Then that's, that's dangerous. We don't want that to happen. So I'm really glad you brought that up, Danny. We are going to switch gears. We've got some fun stuff coming up. Now, I'm not saying that it is the favorite segment, but I do think one of the most interesting segments

of in and around podcasting is actually.

Mark (: 29:44

I'm sorry, stupid stuff in podcasting. We've got a beauty. Verity will love this one. I don't know if you're on LinkedIn. I know you're not, you know, you're not active on the gram, but LinkedIn is wild. It's the wild west. I think both Danny and I spotted this one. So I don't know if you've seen it, but I put a link in the old show notes or captivated. And so Joe Casabona, who's a great guy, follow him on LinkedIn. And what he's got a brilliant name. I always think to myself, I'm connected to Joe Bonamassa.

No, it's not. It's Joe Casabona. But he's a great guy, posts some great content. One of the good ones in podcasting, right? He posted saying to paraphrase that basically. He'd heard the advice given to someone that if you want to double your listenership, double your audience, guess what you do? You just post double the episodes. Now, I was sort of I was I wasn't even in a hot tub, right? But I thought I'd gone back in time.

because I read this and I had this weird flashback. Over on Facebook, years ago, there was a guru selling stuff. It was selling stuff, knowledge, selling knowledge about podcasting. And he used to tell people this, they'd say, what can I do to double my audience? Easy. Double twice as, publish twice as much, double your audience. And then he'd like put the work in. Got a thousand episodes, right? That's a thousand downloads per month.

en you double it, that equals: 2000

Verity (: 31:30

Just no, just no, no. My GCSE maths brain, in fact, my year nine maths brain is hurting me here because just no, I just, oh my gosh, I don't even know where to start with that. I think, I can't get past the word just saying just no, can I? I'm just so in shock. I think it's just, it's ridiculous maths. It's not even maths, is it? Because you're gonna...

Mark (: 31:33

Hehehe

Danny I @DannyBrownCA (: 31:45

Tell us how you really feel, Verity.

Mark (: 31:48

Don't hide it!

Verity (: 31:58

increase your downloads, but what's that got to do with your listeners? How are, well, your listeners just aren't increasing. I just, that's just bad maths and my maths is bad. I think, I think also my irritation with that is because downloads are a great number. Don't get me wrong. They're a great metric. They're a metric. I mean, we've already said why they're so.

good, you know, it comes to monetization and what have you. And downloads are a great metric for a load of different reasons, but, and I'm as guilty of this as the next podcaster saying, you know, we've got X amount of downloads and, you know, all this kind of thing, but, and I'm going to be a little bit controversial. I don't actually think your total downloads or your downloads numbers are the most important. I do think your listener numbers and your retention rates are more important than your

than your downloads. And there's probably people sitting there being like, what on earth do you mean? Why are those more important? We're excited for our thousand downloads. And, but as you said, if you're just putting out double the content, then yes, you're increasing your downloads. But if 30 people are listening to episode one and 30 people listen to episode two and 30 people listening to episode 10, I don't even need to finish that sentence because it's quite obvious that your listenership hasn't.

hasn't grown. I mean, if you can put out double the content, fab, go for it. I mean, on Lazy Girl's Guide to Podcasting, sometimes we do two episodes a week. Sometimes, so sometimes we've got a month where we've put out eight to 10 episodes and other months we've got only our standard weekly ones. But I'm not foolish enough to think that because of the increased downloads for those months,

we've got an increased listenership because we don't, we've got an increased download number because I've put out more content and my lovely listeners have not got sick of my voice and they came back for those extra episodes, which is great. But yeah, no, just, I just don't understand. I'm confused. I'm gonna sit here, be very confused with my maths brain.

Mark (: 33:52

Peace.

Mark (: 33:56

It's a very interesting perspective. And if I was going to devil's advocate it and be, you know, be, be generous. I would say that if you're a show that is selling like programmatic spot advertising and you're putting DII in and you're getting it from an ad marketplace and you've got three slots. And you want to up your revenue. Putting out double episodes, you're going to sell double ads, but your listenership is not going to grow up. And that, and if I was being generous.

Verity (: 33:59

Hmm.

Mark (: 34:26

But we all know that that's really, that's not a great tactic over the long term. That's me being super generous for the, you know, the top two, three, 4% of shows that would benefit from doing that for everyone else. It's quite dangerous. Danny, like imagine saying that to your one minute pod tips listeners. And they're only listening for a minute, mate. That's how busy they are. Right. They can only put an episode out a week. They've only got a minute to listen to you every week. The rest of it's like, I've got to write my show notes. I've got to do this. I've got to do that. Just to stay on top of putting a good podcast out.

they're struggling with it. Like this would make their toes cold, wouldn't it? Like, how do you grow your show? Do more of the thing that you're struggling with. It's crazy.

Danny I @DannyBrownCA (: 35:04

No, and that's, I mean, I sometimes wonder when I see people give that advice, if they're just consultants that don't have a podcast, so they have no idea about the creation of a podcast, especially for indie podcasters that don't have a production team. So I'm an indie podcaster, Ferity, you're an indie podcaster, Mark, you're an indie podcaster. So we know how long it takes to A, research an episode, record, edit, publish, promote, market, rinse, repeat, on and on. That's one episode.

And you're now telling me that I have to do twice as much as that at least to get listeners, to get downloads. And I knew, no thank you. That's like saying, hey, if you want to look really good for the beach, spend twice as long in a sunbed. That's not going to work. You'll last a year.

Mark (: 35:45

Hahaha

that you're wearing a Hawaiian shirt and you're like, right, every, every time I have to give an example, I'm going to use a son one that'll teach him. Yeah, it's a wild one, but we'll put a link to the LinkedIn post and you can look at the comments on it because there are some varied comments and I know it's never as clear cut as, you know, this is just, you know, it's never as clear cut as just this is daft or this is not daft, but I am sick of seeing this advice and it is stupid stuff in podcasting. So I'm not even sorry for putting that one, for putting that one in.

Danny I @DannyBrownCA (: 35:51

After the beach, mate, you know. Sun bed.

Mark (: 36:15

We're going to wrap up in a second or two, but we do have one of our favorite segments coming up. But I just want to remind everyone this is the inaugural episode. You can listen at in and around podcasting.com in your podcast app of choice or indeed over on the YouTube where you will see myself, the lovely Verity and the lovely Danny Brown shirt in full glory. Now, let's finish up with a little bit of this.

Mark (: 36:45

We're all about positivity. We're all about helping people out and shining a light on people doing good things. You know what? They don't even need to be doing good things. It's just nice to be nice. So as our wonderful guest, co-host Verity, you get to give a shout out to someone doing great things or to someone that you just really like and flatter them. So this segment is all yours.

Verity (: 37:09

Oh I love this. By the way, I also need to know who sings your little intro bits for each segment. I know it was you Dani. Oh. They're just so beautiful. Okay.

Mark (: 37:15

It is not Danny. It's not AI Danny either. Danny, he wanted to rap it. And we said, no, but maybe not for this version. But nothing's off the table. Maybe season two. Yeah, but it's the wonderful Katherine Rannis. Yeah, she's amazing from Be Lightful Music. She's amazing. Really, really good. Yeah, thank you. She'll be listening.

Danny I @DannyBrownCA (: 37:17

It's me. That's I-

Verity (: 37:26

Maybe like a season two.

Verity (: 37:33

It's brilliant. I love it. Maybe I should flatter her. She wasn't who I was going to flatter, but maybe we should flatter Catherine because the, I can have two, okay, she's my first one. My second one, who, because when you said I need to think of somebody and I immediately went into like this freeze panic and I was like, who am I gonna mention? But I'm gonna mention my amazing friend, Shannon, who's got a podcast called Second Act Success. It's just incredible. She's done.

Mark (: 37:39

You can have two.

Verity (: 37:56

what feels like a million episodes, interviewing these incredible people who have taken career shifts and career changes. And it's just a great episode, or a great set of episodes for anyone who's kind of thinking, I'm not too sure if this job is for me, or my career is for me. And the depth that she dives into, it's just a great podcast. So that's who I'm gonna shout out.

Mark (: 38:21

I love that daddy you'll relate to this. This feels like you know when you're on a radio show on a calling or like CBB is remember like Phillips go feel back in the day. Probably should mention that but Phillips go feel back in the day. Well, yeah, we'll get that one out now. Who else was Andy Peters? Right and the Peters back in the day with Ed the duck and Gordon the go for and all the rest of when it was like hello caller and the calls like can I give a shout out to my mom? You just did and he always felt cheated. You know,

Verity (: 38:31

Thanks for watching!

Danny I @DannyBrownCA (: 38:32

Hmm. No, edit that one out mate.

Danny I @DannyBrownCA (: 38:37

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Verity (: 38:47

Yeah.

Mark (: 38:50

Let's not be that. Let's shine this light. So wonderful shout out there to Sharon and Danny. Just a bonus flatter. Do you want to flatter anyone? You want to be nice?

Danny I @DannyBrownCA (: 39:01

I'm going to actually flatter, probably because he's doing good things, I feel, is John Spurlock, who does the OP3 open source analytics tool. I think that's a nice option for, because we've been talking about monetization, downloads, etc. in this episode. I think it's a nice way for podcasters that might not have access to some good data, can get this for free via John. So good old John Spurlock, I feel. That's my Flatter Ram this episode.

Mark (: 39:29

I love that, mate. Yeah, I like Jonham. Captivate just became a sponsor of OP3 over OP3.dev as well just this week, actually. So thank you to Jon for developing that one. If you are with a podcast hosting platform that makes you pay extra for quote unquote advanced analytics, sack that off, go to OP3.dev, get that prefix installed and it will give you everything that you need. This has been wonderful. It will always develop. Podcasts always develop. But I've been wanting to do a show like this forever. So thank you.

Danny, it's been a pleasure, mate. Always good to chat to you and see you in that Hawaiian shirt, despite, because of or despite the Hawaiian shirt. I don't know.

Danny I @DannyBrownCA (: 40:05

I think it's both. I think it's a little bit confusing for your brain on a Wednesday afternoon and you're going to come back tomorrow and see what was Danny thinking.

Mark (: 40:13

She had me right up, mate, but always good. We'll be back next week. Verity, thank you for being our very first guest co-host, and I'm sure we'd love to invite you back. Thank you ever so much.

Verity (: 40:23

Thank you so much for having me. It's been a lot of fun. And I love the Ed the Duck reference. I was just thinking, I used to have an Ed the Duck when I was a child. Need to go hunt that out now. Yes, the little jumper. I got left in a supermarket once and my big brother had to go and hunt for it.

Mark (: 40:31

the little squeaker. Oh, amazing.

Mark (: 40:38

Hunting Duck Hunt with Ed the Duck. New podcast launching soon. I love that. I'm enjoying this. Thank you too. So very much. Thank you to all of our listeners and a huge thank you for helping us to launch this show to one James Cridland. It's a pleasure. He features in pod news and that was very, very helpful. We really appreciate you, my friend. So thank you for doing that. And we will see everyone at podcast movement evolutions in Los Angeles. I'll be there doing a panel on real podcast monetization strategies.

Verity (: 40:41

Yep. Perfect.

Mark (: 41:07

for the future with Rob Walsh, Mike Dell, Sam Sette, Heather Osgood, and last but not least, Mr. Kieran McEefer. That is over the next week or so and we'll see you on episode two. Bye bye for now.