Retrospective: 9 Expert Insights on the Podcast Industry

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Hi, and welcome to this special bonus episode of In &

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Around Podcasting, the industry show that shares powerful

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podcasting perspectives. As thousands of podcasters descend

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on The Podcast Show in London, including my erstwhile co-host

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Mark Asquith, we thought we'd take the opportunity to look

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back at the first few months of In & Around Podcasting. We've

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covered a wealth of important topics and been delighted to

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bring some fantastic insights around these topics from both

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industry insiders and indie podcasters. So sit back and

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enjoy this recap. In episode one, we talked about the narrative

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around the death of podcasting, that some naysayers are

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promoting, down to reduced budgets, industry layoffs, the

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dropping of exclusive podcasts and more. Verity Sangan shared

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how she believes a lot of this can come down to a lack of

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strategy in podcasting.

Verity: 00:00:55

This is where I think a lot of this argument comes with

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podcasting is dead is because I think that there are a lot of

Verity: 00:01:00

people who have tried with podcasting. Maybe they have been

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part of the, you know, statistical 80% or whatever it

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is that you don't get past episode three or what have you.

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And maybe podcasting didn't work for them. But then one of the

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things that I'm really interested in and I'm such a

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strategy girl everything for me is strategy. And people get fed

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up of hearing me say the word strategy sometimes, I think. But,

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you know, it's this idea of if you start anything, I think then

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you aren't going to see the success. And I'm saying success

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in inverted commas, because I do believe that success is going to

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look different for different people. And it's that idea that

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unless you do have a plan and you do have a strategy, then

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you're not going to see that success. And I think you're then

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going to continue to feed into the narrative of, well, yeah,

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podcasting is dead because it didn't work for me. It didn't

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work for Joe Bloggs or whoever. I didn't immediately become the

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next the next I was going to say Seth Rogan then - no Joe Rogan,

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very different person. I didn't become the next, you know, Joe

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Rogan within a week. So what was the point? And I think that just

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feeds that narrative.

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Episode two saw us taking a look at the Podcasting 2.0

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initiative and how that's making the listener experience better.

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Here, Joe Casabona shared some great points on how the industry

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can position the benefits of the features, which are what both

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podcasters and listeners are really interested in.

Joe: 00:02:22

I think it really is kind of up to the industry folks to...

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it's almost like saying like as a carmaker, I don't want to oh

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well, only less than like less than 1% of people die from car

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crashes. So I'm not going to put airbags in my car. Like, well,

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that's a crazy thing to say. But I think like again, from the

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kind of feature standpoint, there are, as I watch the

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Podcasting 2.0 space and some of the features that get

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implemented and the things that I think are going to be most

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helpful, that's that's kind of where I land. So like

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transcripts I've been bullish on, like transcripts are necessary

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for a podcast. Like I my show, my current show, my flagship

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show also launched in twenty sixteen. In twenty seventeen, it

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had transcripts because, you know, I think that it's an

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accessibility play, it's a search play. It's a lot of

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things. And so it's really cool to see

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Apple and other people kind of implement this and give native

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support to it. Things like chapter markers. I think that's

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that's technically Podcasting 2.0. Maybe

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that's like support it if you want. It's like kind of hard to

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add. Maybe other apps do it better, but I think about what's

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going to make the biggest impact based on my clients or students

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goals, right? We want to grow the show. Transcripts are

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necessary for that, chapter markers if you're going to

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upload it to YouTube now. Right. And there is like the medium tag

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now. So that's pretty cool to see. Maybe we maybe we do that

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It's I guess it's all very goals based is the most succinct way

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for me to put it.

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In episode three, we had a wonderful discussion around AI

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and podcasting, including the ethical dilemmas around its use

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and what it means for creators. Deirdre Tshien used an example

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of how a creator leads by human expertise, and AI takes that to

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enhance the content for results.

Deirdre: 00:04:22

A lot of it is introducing them to the

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strategies that we really lean into that actually gets them

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results. So, you know, an example is Katie Brinkley, who

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is a social media guru. She talks about a four post social

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media strategy and why I love the four post social media

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strategy is because, again, it's not content for content sake. I

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mean, yes, you're still creating content, but you're creating

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content in order to drive a particular like action, whether

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that's engagement on social media or whether that's opt in

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to a lead magnet or into a workshop. Right, Because we're

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talking to entrepreneurs here. And so like so for me, if I

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could share these strategies that are very human led and hey,

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AI can yes. Help you, you know, shortcut and make it way more

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efficient to give you the base of, for example, these four

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posts. But one of them, for example, one of the posts is

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actually what she calls a community post, which is all

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about your story. Like, AI cannot actually generate that.

Deirdre: 00:05:22

Like it just cannot because it can't, you know, until we have

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chips in our brains or whatever, like it actually doesn't know

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your memories, it doesn't know your story. So you actually have

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to be part of that process to like help create that post. I

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mean, yes, AI can give you inspiration, which Capsho does

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do, which is like, Hey, maybe based on the topic of your

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podcast, this is a story that you can bring to life or, you

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know, it'll give you some ideas, but at the end of the day it's

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still you.

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Episode four saw Mark and I review Podcast Movement

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Evolutions along with where live podcast events have

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opportunities. This includes defining industry events from

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consumer events.

Mark: 00:05:58

But yeah, that would be, that would be a just my bit of

Mark: 00:06:01

feedback would be if it's going to be I think if it's going to

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be industry just LA just feels industry you know L.A. or New

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York personally feel that industry. You've got a hot spot

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over there. You've got, you know, that that whole concept of the

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podcast industry. And I think that's why London does so well

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and why the podcast should do so well, because here in Europe,

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London is the hub. You know, you've got Global, you've got

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the BBC, you've got The Guardian, the Daily Mail, the Telegraph,

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you've got all of these people that are really taking up the

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top spots, even some of the networks like Sky, like, you

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know, people like Channel Four and ITV, some of the rewatch

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stuff, they're all in one place and it feels like LA is like the

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spiritual counterpart of that in the US. So I just feel that it

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could be don't know if it would benefit from it, but I just feel

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it sort of sounds logical and feels logical. And I know there

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are logistical and financial incentives and challenges to

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overcome and whatever else, but it feels like Podcast Movement

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industry stuff sort of needs a home, like it needs to be just

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bound to somewhere where you might be able to add a bit of

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demarcation between, okay, here's the creative stuff and

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here's the industry stuff.

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In episode five, we took a look at why the smaller

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podcast apps have a future. As Apple and Spotify continue to

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mop up the majority of listeners between them, Sam Sethi stated

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the case for smaller apps to make interactivity between

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podcast and listener key and how that can help set these apps

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apart.

Sam: 00:07:35

Discovery of content is a critical thing. One of the

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things that Apple and Spotify don't have is any interactivity

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back to the creator, and that's a big thing. So the ability to

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leave comments, living with a cool boost. So, you know, we've

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got this new language that's got to be adapted to people, but a

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boost is simply just a comment with a payment. And then again,

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that means that you can leave two things. You can have

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comments back to the creator who can then in the next episode go,

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Hey, I was just doing the show and Mary said, blah, blah, blah

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about the show. And you've then got that audience participation,

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that community, and then there's fan to fan. So that two people

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might be talking about your show and can leave a comment so they

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don't have to include the creator. So I think what we're

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looking at is new ways of enabling listeners to interact

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and discover content and new ways for you as a creator, to

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reach your audience, create your fan base, create your community.

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Those are things that Apple and Spotify aren't very good at

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doing is creating that community element and that interactivity

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element.

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In episode six we talked about a topic that probably

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every podcast has faced before, and that's podfade, with new

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data showing that a large percentage of podcasters don't

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make it past episode five. Here, Ashley Hamer explains how

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finding your specific niche and planning episodes several months

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ahead of publication can help prevent podcasters from giving

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up so early.

Ashley: 00:08:59

But for for the ability to actually just keep making my

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show week after week, it's it's really the that thing I was

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saying about internal motivation. Like I, I didn't see a podcast,

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a science podcast that specifically talked about, you

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know, the taboo topics in in our world. And I wanted to make that

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and I wanted that to exist. And so that kind of driving force is,

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is really powerful. It helps me keep going. And then and then in

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addition to that, I think every podcaster needs to have a really

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long list of, of episode topics. You know, it's really easy to

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come up with five. It's not that easy to come up with thirty. And

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that's kind of your deciding factor of like whether this idea

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for a podcast actually has legs and, and also I think everybody

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needs a plan for what to do if you do need a break because a

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lot of people I mean, you know, I think we all need breaks here

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and there. My my show is seasonal, so I can I have a

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certain number of episodes that I want to cover and then I will

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take a break maybe for a couple of months. One time it was for

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an entire maternity leave. So, you know, but but I think that's

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that's important to you don't have to just keep going. You can

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take breaks and I think that can make your podcast last a little

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longer rather than just feeling like, Oh, this is too much. I

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can't just keep doing this week after week, I'm just going to

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stop.

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Just prior to episode seven being recorded, Spotify

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announced it had left the IAB, the industry standard for

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podcast measurement. So Mark and I jumped on it immediately and

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brought James Cridland on to talk about what this meant for

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the industry.

James: 00:10:35

Yeah, and I think, you know, Rob Walsh on The Feed

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keeps on saying, and I think this is great advice, keeps on

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saying the numbers are actually unimportant. What's actually

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important here is the trend. Are you increasing every single week?

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If you're not increasing every single week, then that's

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something to worry about. But as long as you're increasing, as

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long as that trend is showing you increasing and as long as

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you can see when you do something new that the figures

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go up faster, then that's all that really matters. So I

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wouldn't for most of the podcasters listening to this. I

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wouldn't be particularly worried about the fact that Spotify no

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longer has the certification. I mean, if you're hosting on

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Spotify for Podcasters, then I would I would always be saying

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you might want to be hosting somewhere else. But in terms of

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in terms of worrying about whether those numbers that you

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get are absolutely, you know, accurate, I wouldn't I wouldn't

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worry too much. It does change when you are talking to

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advertisers who clearly want more accurate numbers.

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In episode eight, we took a look at what monetization

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looks like for podcasting and does the CPM model work or does

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podcasting need a more sustainable approach to

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monetization for small to medium size podcasts? Tom Webster had

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this to say.

Tom: 00:11:57

Podcasting has has historically been sold as a

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digital medium, and if you look at it as a digital medium, its

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metrics are found wanting, right? You don't get all of it. You

Tom: 00:12:07

know, what's my click through rate? We don't have a click

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through rate. You know, you could sort of get you can get IP

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address and user ID and and you know device basically and you

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can choose to do some work around that. It's not great It's

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not perfect. What if instead you look at it as well it's a

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different thing, right? It's a you look at it as an analog

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medium with incredible metrics. Then you have a slightly

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different sale here because what it provides is more engagement

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than display. It provides more engagement even than than video

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with its short form, you know, very skippable ads. So you're

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basically saying we provide the incredible engagement of analog

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medium with incredible metrics. You know, having said all of

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that, I'll just say again that there are a lot of elements of

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AdTech that have just not caught up to where we need to be and we

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need some more innovation there.

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And finally, rounding this collection up, episode nine

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saw Mark and I are talking about YouTube and its role in

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podcasting. Despite support of RSS feed ingestion added last

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year and more podcast listener features added to YouTube Music,

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many audio first podcasters are still asking whether YouTube

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actually cares about podcasting. Something I speak about here.

Danny: 00:13:22

Yeah. And I think that's all it's an add on, right? It's they

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want you to create within the creator studio and upload your

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videos there, use all their tools and then check a box, this

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is a podcast, great, we'll send that as a playlist. And that

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will be audio playback on YouTube Music. But it seems a

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complete opposite from an Apple where they physically want you

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to create audio. I mean, Apple's supported video since two

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thousand and five, back in the old iTunes days, but they just

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don't really push it as an option because they know

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YouTube's got video locked down, but Apple gives you tools to

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create audio only content and feed that out, etc. It just

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feels like YouTube's doing the complete opposite and there's no

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real benefit. I look at my analytics, I get maybe one or

Danny: 00:14:04

two plays, views, listens, whatever you want to call it, on

Danny: 00:14:07

my RSS ingested feed episode. And then I look at when I do the

Danny: 00:14:11

video version of that, I'm not a big. I've not got a lot of

Danny: 00:14:14

subscribers still, under 50. I got on my YouTube channel, but I

Danny: 00:14:18

get a decent amount of views because that's how the

Danny: 00:14:20

algorithm's set up. So it's not... the RSS is there, but it's like,

Danny: 00:14:25

is it really there if no one's really using it, you know, or

Danny: 00:14:27

thinking of YouTube as audio, really, I don't know. Thanks so

Danny: 00:14:32

much for listening to this bonus episode. I think you'll agree

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that there's been some great discussion so far and we're only

Danny: 00:14:37

just getting started. Thanks so much to our amazing guests so

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far and to you, the listener, for being here with us each week

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and for making the show one that's quickly found its way

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into the listening habits of both podcasters and anyone

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interested in the podcasting space. If there's someone you

Danny: 00:14:51

know that would enjoy the show, to be sure to recommend us by

Danny: 00:14:54

sending them to In and Around Podcasting dot com, where they

Danny: 00:14:57

can catch up on any episodes they've missed. And if you enjoy

Danny: 00:15:00

the show and wanted to show that by leaving us a review, you can

Danny: 00:15:03

do that over at In and Around Podcasting dot com slash review.

Danny: 00:15:07

Thank you for all your support so far. And we'll be back next

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week, same place, same time with more industry insights. Until

Danny: 00:15:14

then, keep doing what you do in this wonderful industry that

Danny: 00:15:16

means so much to us all. Bye bye for now.