Video Podcasting: What It Means for Podcasters
2024 saw Spotify make a big push for video on their platform, while it also seemed anywhere you turned online was someone telling podcasters they need to do video to stay relevant.
So, is 2025 the year we all need to get on board with video podcasting, or does audio-first podcasting still have merits? Join your regular hosts Mark Asquith and Danny Brown, as well as guest co-host John McDermott, as they look to answer the question on everyone's lips: what does the push for video mean for podcasting and podcasters?
Our guest co-host this week: John McDermott
Co-Founder of Caloroga Shark Media, a podcast company focused on short-form pods. Previously EVP programming for Cadence 13. Before that 10 years at SiriusXM (VP Comedy & Entertainment). Before THAT a decade at WOR New York doing talk radio I am the host of the podcasts 5 Good News Stories and Daily Comedy News. Substack where I pontificate is John McDermott's Media Thoughts (mcdpod.substack.com) and people are encouraged to be my LinkedIn friend.
Links to interesting things from this episode
- Dave & Dave Unchained Van Halen podcast Podcast – Apple Podcasts
- Podcast Predictions, Trends & Tips for 2025
- Will Video Kill the Audio Star in 2025?
- Podcasting's unique selling proposition is not video | James Cridland - radio futurologist
In & Around Podcasting is a podcast industry podcast brought to you by Mark Asquith and Danny Brown.
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Transcript
It's not just all the.
Mark Asquith:Hello there and welcome to In and Around Podcasting, the industry show that highlights a range of powerful podcasting perspectives, and a happy new year to you. We hope you enjoyed the holidays. If you celebrate and if, if you just had a little bit of time off, we hope you had a little chance to recharge.
And also I'm going to ask a question at InAroundPodcast over on X or Twitter, which I'm still going to call it forever. When is it too late to say Happy New Year? Because here we are and I'm still going, but happy New Year nonetheless.
Now, did or will ever video kill the podcast star? It has been something that has been. It's been tickling the taste buds of the podcasting industry for a long time now.
Podcasts become more video oriented, they become more visual.
And certainly, honestly, the more people I talk to about podcasting, the more and more people say they are watching podcasts or they've seen a podcast on YouTube. And increasingly people are starting podcasts, YouTube first, video first. At the top of the year. What does that mean for podcasting the industry?
We've got some really interesting insights from some articles that wrapped up in twenty twenty-four, one from our great friend Mr. James Cridland, and a couple more that we'll talk about in just a little while. And we're going to talk about the good, the bad and the ugly.
Plus we're going to sprinkle in a little bit of stupid stuff and we're going to, of course, deliver our first flattering ram of twenty twenty-five. My name is Mark Asquith, co founder and MD here at Captivate.
And without further ado, I'm going to hand over to my charming, if not a tad Scottish, co host, Mr. Danny Brown. Hello, mate. You all right?
Danny Brown:I'm all good, mate. You know what, when you were saying happy New Year and that, and what does it hold for video and podcasting and that for.
For some reason I was expecting you to say twenty twenty-three. So I've lost a year somewhere or two years, mate.
Mark Asquith:It's like the classic. I had to think. So hard to say twenty twenty-five because I was going to say twenty twenty-four and then.
I know exactly what you mean because it, it was either going to be twenty twenty-four or like twenty nineteen. You know, it was that that entire period of the whole Covid stuff and everything since twenty nineteen is just gone, man.
So I like that you had faith in me, though, for twenty twenty-three.
Danny Brown:Yeah, well, I can always edit it as well. I probably wouldn't just to make you look sillier than you normally do, but you know.
Mark Asquith:Yeah, it can be fixed. I guess I can. That would have been the first stupid stuff in podcasting, like when you used to work.
I used to work in my old office like when I was about twenty. Every time you put the wrong date on, you know, it'd be like Susan would always find it's like. You happy with that? Oh, here we go. Go on, Susan.
What is it the wrong date again? Like third time today. Oh my word. Thanks for the PTSD memory. Appreciate that. But yes. Hello. You all right? Did you have a good break, dude?
Danny Brown:I had a really good break, yeah. Nice. Some downtime. We visited family just for the one day and then just basically was at home. My wife was on call for her work so she wasn't so good.
But yeah, apart from that, all good, mate. And we ended up getting a new puppy that we picked up yesterday.
Mark Asquith:Oh, what kind of puppy?
Danny Brown:It's another Chinese Crested, but this one's a powder puff, so it's actually got fur. Normally they're naked.
Mark Asquith:That's a heck of a lot of words coming my way that I don't understand right now. I just know dog and then rescue dog which is what I've got. And the difference is basically like a grand in my eyes and they're just.
Yeah, we've got a little rescue dog called Norman and we rescued him at three months actually, which I thought was really weird. So happy new puppy. Hope it choose your skirting boards well.
Danny Brown:I will send the repair bill to you.
Mark Asquith:Charming, Charming, charming. So what we got today, dude? We're going to talk about video, but we are joined by a fantastic co host, aren't we?
Danny Brown:We are indeed. And I'm really pleased to have John. John McDermott's joining us today and I've been following his Substack for a while.
He has some really interesting thoughts around podcasting as well as music and some other stuff. But obviously we're bringing John on for his podcast in wisdom.
So John McDermott, he's the CO founder of Caladoga Shark Media and that's a podcast company that's focused on short form pods. And before that he was EVP of Programming for Cadence Thirteen and before that he had ten years at SiriusXM as VP of Comedy and entertainment.
There's a lot of other before thats too. So we know John has got an amazing amount of experience and we're looking forward, especially on this topic to see what John's bringing to the show.
So, John, welcome to In and Around Podcasting.
John McDermott:Hey, thanks for having me. Been listening to you guys for years. You made me sound old, so I'll make you sound old. How long has this pod been on? It's a while, right?
Danny Brown:It's not even a year old. I think we started it last March, Mark. March or April.
John McDermott:Yeah.
Mark Asquith:We sort of did a couple of little soft ones. Little soft reboots. Yeah, it's been. Yeah, maybe March. And then we sort of like, you've probably seen this a thousand times, John.
We did the whole bite off way more than we can chew when it comes to trying to set the format. And then, oh, we'll do YouTube, which is ironic. We'll get to that, I'm sure.
But it was, it's been sort of ever evolving, which is, is, is, is part of the charm of podcasting, isn't it? But, man, it's still really hard work. Like, even ten years in, it's really, like, it doesn't get any easier, does it? Just produce in the stuff.
John McDermott:The producing the stuff is the fun part. It's. And we'll get into it. The discovery is the challenging part. But producing stuff, I can make stuff. All day I spent, I'm working on a project.
I just got back from Antarctica for real. So while I was there, I collected some audio.
And I just started messing around yesterday, collecting sound beds, looking at some AI voice characters that could voice some of the things that I need to work into the mix. And I spent three hours doing a rough cut of fourteen minutes, and it was wonderful.
Mark Asquith:That is pretty cool, actually. That is pretty cool. I, I, you're right. Actually, the creativity side of it's really fun.
Like, I did, I did a movie show, and Danny will remember this. We talked about some stuff. It's called, It's How Old?
And it's this whole, you know, when you don't, you're having a beer with your friends, you know, did you remember Batman coming out? I remember the Godfather coming out. Or you remember something coming out and you're like, wow, that's forty years old this year.
And it sort of shocks you, makes you think, this is unbelievable. And the creativity aspect of it was fantastic. Really love doing it. And then it came to the assets and the, okay, let's do the editing side of it.
Let's do some of the visuals that I need to do. Let's actually write the stuff to support this. And I just thought, oh, my word, this is, this is like the job side of podcast.
And I found it really hard to get over that, which I think sort of segues into the video stuff, maybe for later, because so many indies are that, you know, the ninety nine percent of us are at that level where we've got a couple of hours per week and suddenly someone's saying, you must do video. Well, where's that gonna fit in the two hours? So I think that'll be quite interesting. Now, Danny, you.
You actually pulled in three articles which I think are quite interesting. I've obviously read them with, I suppose, with a lot of interest. I think it's quite interesting to see the. The different opinions of.
Of video in podcasting. We've got an article that will stick in the show, Notes from James Cridland.
We've got one from Nick Quah, formerly of Hot Pod, of course, now out of Vulture, and then one from Courtney Kocak. I apologize if I've butchered that name. Courtney. I sincerely apologize.
But Danny, what made you put this video, I suppose, subject, this idea, this notion right at the top of the year. Do you think it's that important?
Danny Brown:I think it's one of these conversations at the minute that's sort of dominating the space. And I've known James for a little while, as pretty much everybody has, through his Podnews stuff.
And I've met him at a couple of events and he never seems to. He always seems to be like a nice, pleasant, easygoing fella.
And he dropped an f bomb on LinkedIn regarding this, which I thought, okay, if James Cridland's dropping F bombs, then there's going to be something here worth discussing. So, yeah, I mean, I see it obviously at Captivate. I see it in support.
People are asking about video podcasting equipment you need in that you see it online. John, I know you've discussed it through your newsletter and notes that you share over in Substack as well.
So it does seem that it's like the topic of the day or the topic of the hour, even when it comes to podcasting. And there seems to be a very definitive split. There's either pro video all in or audio only all in.
And not a lot of middle ground when it comes to a lot of the stuff that's been published and talked about online. So I was curious about.
Obviously, our show is about trying to find that middle ground, what it means for indies, especially along with big brands, and just sort of discuss, is it pro? Is it. Should everybody get on board? What does it mean for audio only, that kind of thing.
And I thought that'd be a good topic to kick off the the New Year.
Mark Asquith:I love that. Well, we'll get into some of the nuance later on then. But John, I, I want to get your top line on this. Like, where do you stand? Where do you stand?
You can go for as long as you like on this, but top line, what's your initial thought? As we stand, as we're recording, recording this thirteenth of January twenty twenty-five, what's your stance on the big broad term of video and podcasting?
John McDermott:I appreciate having me on because here I can use the nuance of voice. We're having a reasoned discussion, we're calm.
Whereas on the substack, I throw fastballs, I'm throwing heat to start a discussion, I've got to get attention. So I just come out firing nothing but fastballs. But here, having a more reasoned discussion, let me lead with I'm not an idiot.
I get the YouTube algorithm. There's clearly value there.
That said, my big takeaway is my bold prediction is that by July, a lot of podcasting companies that are rushing into video right now are going to look at the numbers, not see the return. And I don't know what those effects are going to be. Are they going to be people who have brand new jobs this month that work for six months?
And then some boss goes, that didn't work. For those of us that have been doing this for a minute, let's go back ten years. Remember Facebook Live? We better be on Facebook Live.
The Facebook algorithm, we better do video. And everybody bought a couch and got a tricaster and put up some videos that lasted six months maybe, and the money wasn't there.
I think we're seeing a little of that now. For example, does anybody really want to look at me on YouTube reading daily comedy news headlines? It's not that interesting.
If you book Donald Trump and we get a fancy set and I can have twenty five people work on it, is that a good video? Sure. My concern is at the top level, clearly it works. Does the YouTube algorithm work? Sure.
For us in the middle or basement podcasters, I'm not sure it works. And this recent conversation really stirred up again because of the moves by Spotify.
And if we look at Spotify's business model, if you stream more music on your premium account, the more music you stream, the more expensive it is for Spotify to run their business because of the way royalties works. Therefore, they are motivated to get people into spoken word.
Hence the interest in spot in podcasting, which they were very interested in and spent A lot of money. And then for whatever reason, I don't have the internals, they stopped spending a lot of money and redid the deals.
And suddenly in Q Four, we're all told, oh, we better get on Spotify, we better make videos. And my question to the industry is why?
Mark Asquith:I think there's a lot of even nuance around the broad term video podcasting as well. John and Danny, we've spoken about this. I wholeheartedly agree with everything you've said. That is very much my stance as well.
And thinking through, I was sort of thinking through like Spotify, the business model, even a few years ago, you know, I was saying to people that, you know, regardless of whether we submit our audio via RSS or not, ultimately what they're going to do is they're going to track the events in the app like any good app does.
They're going to track our behavior, behavioral tendencies and they're going to push us to places that they know we're going to stick and they're going to make more revenue from us, as you said, because, you know, they don't have to pay royalties out, hence moving into audiobooks and so on and so forth. Wholeheartedly agree.
And I think a lot of the time, like the traditional podcast industry kind of pulled away from that a little bit because they didn't think like a startup business, they didn't think like a more modern event based business.
You know, and when I say event based, I mean like when someone uses Captivate, we may say, okay, you've completed this thing on Captivate, we're going to give you a little reward for that. We can see that's an event that's been completed and it helps us to keep you going and to helps you to help us and it helps us to help you.
And I think podcasting was sort of a little bit off that they didn't sort of get that. And then I think YouTube sort of came over here and did this. You can, you can just re, you can just record anything, right?
You can take your old Blab, stream your old Facebook live stream, you can go on OBS and you can stream to all these different places, pop it over on YouTube and we might surface it. And then suddenly YouTube stepped into podcasting and we sort of saw this, this idea of the chat show.
People like Jordan Harbinger, obviously Joe Rogan, people like all the goal hanger stuff.
People like, even people that, that are using like a Riverside or a Boomcaster and doing these talking head things that we're doing the, the, the, the, the word video and podcast sort of just became synonymous with like, oh, a podcast interview, you know, and the guys, the builders that we work with here doing some work on the house. I watched a podcast last night and it might have been Joe Rogan or it might have been Jordan, or it might have been something else.
But to them, video podcast means interview with someone and the word podcast just means interview. Right? And that is, that feels like that's seeping into the mainstream a little bit. But then there's the video podcasting element.
You know, this whole. Well, we saw that back in oh five. That's never going to happen.
Spotify can do what they want in video podcasting and they can give you the ability to upload a video using rss. And it's just the file that's in the enclosure is not an MP3, it's a video file. We'll deliver it via RSS.
Those two things are really, really, really, really different. One of them still sits in the open ecosystem. Certainly the ability to do that, whether it's, you know, Spotify is a little different.
But the ability to put a video in RSS has been around since day dot.
Whereas if, if, if I see people in like the podcast movement Facebook group talking about starting a video podcast, it's usually an interview show they're gonna put on YouTube because that's just the vernacular now. And I don't know, it just, it feels a little bit, it feels a little bit like Nick said in his Vulture article.
And like we've spoke about before this, there's, there will still, there's always going to be this fracturing of podcasting.
ame thing as we were doing in:It's better but, but it's still the 90% of us.
And it just, it feels as if videos, again Nick mentioned this, it feels this videos only really going to perform for that 1% that have got great production value, that can actually do research with diligence and decent guests that can game the algorithm.
If you look at someone like, you know, Rick Shield's podcast over on YouTube and his channel, overall, it dominates that niche, or it did and it's it's big hyperbolic titles and big thumbnails like it. I know. I suppose all of that goes to say it doesn't feel like podcasting as we've known it. Sorry, that was a bit of a ramble on.
But it just, it feels a little bit like for most of us, like it's square peg and round hole. You know what I mean?
John McDermott:Yeah, it's, it's interesting. So I've never really been interested in the, the argument over, well, if it doesn't have an RSS feed, it's not a podcast.
A podcast is whatever the audience says a podcast is. And as creators, we just have to accept that.
One thing I teach a college class and my week, one every week, every semester, is I ask them, why am I here? And they give me all sorts of noble answers. Oh, you love teaching. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but why am I here?
And I do that for about 20 minutes and then I tell them I'm being paid. And then I do this whole thing about what is radio, what is tv?
And I'll hold up my phone and I'll say, okay, I was watching the football game out on my deck on this device. Was I watching tv? And I go through all that and it's all a straw horse argument. And after about an hour I tell them, I don't care. I make content.
And for my career I've worked in AM radio, satellite radio, now podcasting. If somebody invents the holodecks, I'll make some holodeck content. But my approach has always been, can we do these things reasonably?
If you work with me long enough, I will eventually say, or we can go in the other room and talk about basketball for thirty minutes and hit publish. So Bill Simmons has made a great empire based on simple, let's just have a conversation and put it out. Whether it's video or audio.
I look at some shows. I was listening to one last week. It was a discussion of what is going on with James Bond and Amazon.
It was a discussion and I'll concede it was the best possible discussion that could possibly have. It was immaculately researched. nineteen producers worked on a thirty minute show. What are we doing?
Danny Brown:It's interesting you mentioned Bill Simmons there.
That was one of the things that, that James has been towards the end of last year especially really harping on and I apologize, James, I don't mean you're harping on like an old witch or whatever.
Mark Asquith:My bad going in Pod news, isn't it? Danny Brown says, editor of this newsletter.
Danny Brown:Harps on, harps on. Hopefully we'll get lost in translation. But yeah, I mean, he mentioned Bill Simmons quite a bit.
The fact that obviously Bill Simmons is one of the main guys at Spotify, but he would promote the video version of ace podcast on YouTube and always send the viewers, the watchers, listeners, etc. To YouTube.
So it was interesting that even, you know, as Spotify makes this big push for video now and how easy it is to add video to Spotify, that one of the main people from Spotify was still, you know, pushing it over to the other place, so to speak. But yeah, I mean, that's the whole thing.
That's one of the reasons Mark and I, I don't think, made a real full on push for the video version for this podcast, because it does take. We're just two people, you know, we're still two indie podcasters that have limited hours every week.
And to do the video version properly and give it justice would have taken a lot more post production and we don't have that. You know, we work at a hosting, you know, a podcast platform, but we don't have the ability to really do video well.
And I think that talks to the point that was made earlier about the top 1 to 10% that might succeed with video because they've got the production team behind them and they're the resources. But for the rest, that's where.
And again, this is one of the reasons to have this discussion is what does that mean for the indie creator, the indie podcaster that's feeling pressured to do video because everybody's saying you have to do it, but now they're thinking, well, I'm struggling to do audio, how am I going to do video? And properly and like you say, John, and meet that YouTube algorithm head on.
Mark Asquith:So to speak, I think as well. So to inject on that, just to finish on the in and around podcasting point, it's, it's, it's boring. It's boring on YouTube, right?
This show is made for driving around in your car, sticking it on while you're doing the housework. If you ever go to the gym, it's made.
If you're interested in podcasting and you want a little bit of, you know, something that's not quite as dry as some of the other shows. Come and have a bit of a good time. But, and I think that's where YouTube's quite interesting.
Like a lot of if we, we could put this on YouTube, right? And, and it would, it would, it would be, it would maybe get Some views, but it would be boring, right?
We're all sat here recording on an app in different locations. How do we, number one, hit that the algorithm to be tight enough on the jump cuts to be tight enough on the, the, the, the titling on the thumbnails.
How do we keep the audience engaged in such. We don't. We just do it because people say we're going to do video now. You know, I'm massively into golf and massively into Star Wars.
They're miles more fun to go out and do some video content.
And if I go out on the golf course and I record something or if I go to Star Wars Celebration and I go and record something that I can keep people interested with, it's not, it's not just some guys talking about something looking at a camera.
And I just feel that like you said John, earlier on, you know, if, if someone is brought in today to start a new job and their job is to get video going, but the company that brings them in doesn't invest in sets, production teams and something to make a show, you know, what is essentially a TV show. If we go back to that, that use case earlier, then it probably won't do that well. So I just think it has to be interesting to the host as well.
But yeah, that, because that is a big reason, as I've been thinking about in, around podcasting, why we didn't do it because I just like even I'm. I would be bored watching us.
We're amazing to listen to, hilarious, I'm massively knowledgeable, but man would be boring to watch when there's the whole world of YouTube out there, you know. So sorry I interjected a bit, but just, just a finishing point on the in and around stuff really.
John McDermott:What's interesting to me, the Gen Zs that I teach, they have explained to me they'll put it on, on YouTube, on a TV and then walk around the house doing chores. So it's. If we have this tendency to think people are sitting on a couch and staring at the people, they're not. They're walking around the house.
So that's behavior too. I always like surrounding myself with people just out of school so that I don't wind up isolated on Old Man Mountain. That's always been key to me.
But another thing about specifically YouTube and we'll see how Spotify evolves. There are people I will call YouTubers. So where does that line between podcaster and YouTuber, where does that cross? I don't know.
But they have ecosystems so if we look at somebody like Critical Drinker who talks about pop culture, sci fi, Very good. He hangs around with a group of folks who do similar type shows.
Nerd Rotic is one of the bigger ones and they all guest on each other's shows and they do these four hour long super videos that are live on Friday nights with 12 people on breaking all the Rules. I think of my old boss, Jay Clark would lose his mind If I had 14 people on mic at the same time, right?
But they'll do these things and then the audience is chiming in on super chats and they do these ecosystems. So this week I'll host the super chat and then next week you host all 14 of us. And then Danny will host all 14 of us.
And they're all kind of building each other together. We've seen the same thing in the Rogan verse of Joe has using his platform to bless other comedians and help them accelerate their careers.
And they all guest on each other's shows.
Theo Vaughn went on Joe Rogan last week or the week before for us, I guess you guys could go on the Pod News Weekly review and then hop over to the other shows and we could all do that, but with much smaller followings. It'll take a while to build. So that's part of the YouTube thing as well that I would caution independence for. Of.
Yes, you can do all this work and spend three hours and do good cover art and do a good thumbnail and buy a couch and light your room properly. It's a lot more work than just talk about something you love. Clean up the edit, publish, maybe throw in some programmatic and let's go.
Mark Asquith:Well, that's a fascinating point actually, John, because I think one of the other.
One of the other examples that I often sort of flippantly use when I'm doing any, like webinars or on, you know, any talks like PodFest or Podcast Movement, whatever is. I always sort of say to people, look, you know, you started your podcast, you're a nerd and you want to start talking about Star wars, right?
That's it. I don't care. When I got into podcasting, I didn't care about podcasting. I cared about the thing I was podcasting about.
It just so happens that I loved podcasting and here we are. But the fact is that most people don't. They just want to talk about the thing that they want to talk about.
And no one says to themselves, right, it's Monday, 13th of January, New Year's resolution. Absolutely brilliant. I'm going to start a podcast, and that's going to happen today.
And then tomorrow I'm going to start a marketing course that's going to be brilliant. Then I'm going to start a business course because I've got to sort those expenses out.
And then, you know, you can sort of be flippant about that and, and, and, and, and sort of say to people, you can get so far without that knowledge. But you are going to have to learn some marketing in order to grow.
Whether that's collaborative marketing, whether it's traditional marketing, whether it's just simple promo stuff, you will have to do something. Now, as you said, if you are a podcaster who moves into video, you actually become a YouTuber. And that's a different skill set.
And we can put it under the banner of I'm a creator, because I think everything's getting a little bit meshed together, but the skills are different, the algorithms are different. If I, in the past, if, if it was a case of, right, I'm gonna start a podcast, I'm gonna stick it on Apple podcasts.
And then someone says, why are you on Spotify? You know, back in the day before it was a real major thing. Oh, no, should I be? Yeah. Then you jump into your house, you press a button.
Now, if someone says, are you on YouTube? Yeah, sure, I can submit my RSS. That's a little shaky, but no, I'm not on YouTube. How do I do that? Well, you sort of got a few options.
You can sort of distribute it, or you can just do these special videos and actually edit it yourself and do your thumbnail as becomes. It's this. It's this production. And you said earlier that why do we need so many producers? We don't really need all that to make a good show.
So, Daniel, I'm thinking back to that. That fracture that Nick predicted, and we've predicted it before in the past, where it's like. It's like the old shuttle.
You know, the fuel tanks of the industry, RSS and audio have taken the shuttle up, and now the 1% shuttles off into orbit and the rest of us are sort of just, you know, we're sort of burning up back, back towards Earth. What? Don't give me that shaking. If we did video, you'd see Danny shaking his head. That's a brilliant analogy.
Danny Brown:I'm not taking any classic ask with analogy.
Mark Asquith:It's a classic for a reason, Danny, because I'm old. But it just feels. It feels as if in order to take advantage of YouTube. You have to have resources, whether that's time or money.
And famously podcasters just don't have that. So it's almost built in doom. Surely. That's another classic analogy, mate.
Danny Brown:I almost wonder though, and I think there might have been a comment along this line on the Vulture article, but I wonder if this is the not the draw the line is sand thing.
But I wonder if this is almost where indie podcasters that don't have the funds to make video do high production and even on the audio only version, you know, just do minimum auditing and publish it, you know, whatever your hosting is. But I almost wonder because you need to do video well.
And John, you alluded to this with the number of publishers or producers, sorry, on that one show, one episode, it may be the bigger brands that have got the budget and the team that do video really well.
And now audio only is where the indie creators and indie podcasters will have the opportunity to sort of step up as brands, sort of focus more on video and allocate budgets there. And the ones that have got the big budgets will succeed.
The ones that don't, as John mentioned, might be out of a job in six months time, unfortunately. But I wonder if that's like the demarcation now.
Audio only will become a sort of safe haven, if you like, for indies and video done well will become a place for the larger budgets. Or maybe I'm just talking pants, who knows?
Mark Asquith:Well, to take that step further as well and to throw this one at you, John, actually in the future, will audio only or audio first actually come round again as being a badge of honor? You know? You know, it was great to outsource your telecoms and your call centers for such a long time. That was the thing that was advertised. Yeah.
247 access.
You can get older someone now call centers based in the UK is the thing, you know, everything comes back round and I just wonder, is audio only going to be. Will it become a badge of honor again in five years?
John McDermott:Yeah, I mean we've been killing off audio since the 50s, right. And just things evolve. Audio has the wonderfulness of you alluded to it. It's portable. I can't watch this podcast while driving a car.
As awesome as it is to stare at three guys with microphones in boxes. I'm driving a car, I'm running outside, I'm half asleep in my backyard in a hammock, all that. There's also the theater of the mind of it.
We can tell these wonderful stories. And then there's an example that's often brought up is New York Times, the Daily. Their videos don't do all that well.
That seems to still be a healthy business without them shooting guys reading headlines into a microphone.
Mark Asquith:And it's interesting as well to sort of see people jump into this video craze. And I sort of mentioned it earlier, this idea of video is this one being this one entity, this one just this one broad stroke.
So I want to focus on just for a second video delivered via RSS and or in Spotify. Like that's, that's, that's got what, six weeks in it surely like you absolutely nailed it in my opinion. John.
I'm walking, I'm not running, I'm walking, I'm in the car, I'm snoozing on my deck. I better watch this, not listen to it. That ain't happening, is it? Let's be honest, no, not a chance.
John McDermott:It's a portable medium. Even the YouTubers that I like, I have an app, I rip the audio and I listen to it as a podcast.
There are nights I have insomnia and sometimes I'm staring at the ceiling at 1 o'clock and I put one of those on hit 20 minute timer and hopefully pass out to it again. I get the algorithm, I'm not a fool, I get it. But it's a lot of work.
Mark Asquith:And also like Apple went the opposite way to Spotify. You know, like it all loathe it which, you know, whichever ecosystem you are a fan of.
Around the same time that Spotify went all in on everything, you know, supposedly all in on audio, but now it's video as well. Apple didn't. Apple blew up itunes and went ah, ah, ah.
Apple TV and there's an app for Apple podcasts and here's an app for this, that and the other and it blew everything apart and it exploded these apps out and it took the ecosystem to be in an ecosystem, not just one app. And it feels as if, you know, the, the whole video, genuine video podcasting, you know, if we go real traditional on it.
Video delivered via rss, it's just a.
We've seen it in the past and it's just, I don't know, it feels a bit foolish of Spotify to try and I just can't help but feel it's some sort of ad play because we know that the audio.
Danny, correct me if I'm wrong, but if I upload my video to Spotify and someone tries to listen to my podcast of the same episode, doesn't the audio of that video become the podcast.
Danny Brown:Yeah, exactly, yeah.
So if you do it manually to an existing audio only show or audio first show, or you do it fully through Spotify via their hosting solution, the audio is pulled from the video. So your RSS feed from another host is now bypassed completely.
Mark Asquith:And all my programmatic advertising, any of my baked in ads, if they're not in the video. There you go. Now, we know that walled gardens are intended to track event based behavioral, behavioral behavior by users.
And we know that the point of that is so we can give better targeting and we can make more money. The CPMs go up, the direct sales go up, the horse reads go.
Everything goes up in theory because we know more about the people and blah, blah, blah, blah. Look @ this is TV. And it just. We know that's the way that. Well, let me rephrase this.
We know that we want more money to keep flowing through podcasting, but at what point does the industry like, is video the point that the industry goes? You know what, Actually we, as a podcasting industry, we're all right. We're big enough, our hobbyists are making enough money.
The hosting companies are doing all right as a, as an industry, the 99 of us are fine, you 1% do what you want, but actually we are good. Is video the straw and the camel's back again? I don't know, it's just thinking out loud, but it just like, when's enough enough?
John McDermott:Yeah, I mean, for me as a manager, I can show you how to make money if we run things lean and mean. If you're an independent and you just want to talk about frisbees, great. Talk about frisbees. And don't worry about the monetization at all.
For me, the struggle is in that middle tier of shows. If you give me Joe Rogan's audience, clearly we can make money.
If you give me a smaller show, and I have a ton of smaller shows, I could show you how to make money. It's that middle tier where we have, in my opinion, too many people working on it.
And now we're going to shoot video because the boss read the articles in December that were all everybody feeding off, oh, I better write an article about video podcasting. And it just became this thing that I'm not even sure is real.
I know we're all talking about it, but everybody in the industry who's talking about it seems to have tap the brakes and it's like, wait, what are we doing here? So is it just the lazy term the mainstream media.
Is it just the mainstream media writing articles about video podcasting and maybe nobody's actually doing it.
Mark Asquith:That's actually an interesting point because I think one of the unseen challenges with, with some of this video stuff is like the top tier, even that 1%. You know, think about the people that have already got existing audio deals, right?
And they've got, you know, they've got two sponsor partners, both paying for horse reads. And the contract is two years into a three year deal with renegotiation coming up. Suddenly the creator wants to stick this on YouTube. What do you do?
Do you renegotiate? Are they going to make more money? Is it audio first? Is the window in is any exclusivity?
And I think there's a lot of big business that is, that is even struggling with how to do this properly. And then it sort of leads to the discussion of, well, do we do video first and just strip the audio?
Which in my view diminishes the quality of the audio product because unless you've got the big production team, it ain't going to get edited properly and it's going to be a different experience. And you're going to get.
I'm going to be driving along in my car and I'm going to hear hey man, hit like and subscribe and hit me in the comments below. And I'm like, I'm gonna crash my car if I try that one. So you sort of, I don't know.
There are these weird challenges I think that even the top tier facing. And I think a lot of that is contractual.
A lot of that is around revenue shares, around profitability and, you know, assuming someone's a year out of contract and from a year out from a contract renewal, for argument's sake, do they have a stronger position or a weaker position when it comes to renegotiating? Do they ask for the video version and they can do with it what they will do? The bigger companies, the media companies have to figure that out.
John, I don't know. You'll have way more experience than me in this, but it feels a bit minefieldy at this point because nothing's that clear cut.
John McDermott:Having worked with big stars and celebrities, if you have a big enough audience and a celebrity, you get away with every one. You can put your show on YouTube and get a helicopter during the renegotiation.
If you were a middle show, there's a good chance that we'll eliminate your show to clear the budget to pay the next big celebrity. Believe me in my 10 years in satellite, the one thing that absolutely learned is celebrity will win out over great content.
Just somebody coming in with an established audience will pop. We'll see. Every now and then on the Apple charts, somebody more famous than me starts a podcast and shoots right to number one.
Doesn't mean that they're not good. It just is that they have a bigger following and, you know, so if you're a big star, yeah, you'll be able to move over if you're a medium show.
And now you want to make the whole programmatic thing more challenging. And what are we doing with the live reads that might start a conversation that the host didn't want to start?
Where the bosses go, eh, Is this even going to be worth it if we're going to lose X metric, whatever the math of that is, believe me, those middle shows, that could be a challenge. You also brought up doing this correctly.
In my prep for this interview, I was popping on YouTube and looking at the download numbers for some of the more popular shows. I'm not here to kick anybody in the shin, so I won't tell you what show it was, but I was playing one.
And a few minutes in, just mid sentence, boom, a YouTube ad. And that is not doing it properly. I come out of radio and I've been hosting my own podcast for years. And there's the art of ending on a downbeat.
Okay, guys, put the marker right there where I just gave you a pregnant pause and ended on the downbeat. And I'll watch these things and I'll listen to some too. Joe Rogan.
And nine minutes in, suddenly mid sentence, there's a commercial at twice the volume. It is not a pleasant experience. Again, I like ads. If you've ever worked with me, I am the sales department's friend. Please, please sell some spots.
Please get me some live reads. I will happily endorse your product. This is great. This is why we're here. It's a business.
But if you don't do it properly, it's a terrible user experience. A mid sentence chop, and suddenly we're in an ad. What are we doing? Place a marker, mate.
Mark Asquith:I was listening to a golf podcast, had the same experience and it was literally mid word twice in one episode. And I was like, man, we gotta figure that out. We gotta. This is a good show. Please don't do this.
And that's, that's an interesting, an interesting point as well.
Because very often now the pre roll is a genuine programmatic pre roll on a lot of shows that, that people Listen to which is the most valuable of valuable theoretically. But it's, it's getting to be a dodgy experience with some shows.
You know, there are genuinely like, there are, there are a few shows that I listen to. Again, not naming any names where it's two bros talking. They just happen to be golf ones. So it's just the way of it at the moment.
And it's, you know, two guys and the format is probably four 30 second ads. Right. So they've got four. They've got a pre roll slot in there with four as shot into it. Cool, whatever. Then they've got. Hi, welcome to the show.
We're going to talk about X. Here's my co host. Such and such. Did you have a good weekend? What about this game? What about this? You're not going to believe what my dog did.
Blah, blah, blah. 15 minutes, then a pre roll that's then inserted as, as their pre roll out.
Obviously a mid roll but they're treating it as a host re pre roll and then 15 minutes in, we're getting to the content on YouTube, like we are just about putting up with that. But on YouTube that is, that's tank. That is not working.
That is going to tank, obviously with the programmatics a bit different over there, but that is just simply not going to fly. And it just right back to the beginning. John, at what point does someone say, right, welcome to the job.
January 6th, we're going to take this audio show, make it into a video show over on YouTube because we look, we've run the modeling, here's where we can make a pile of money. And they're, they're there to promote it and to market it and to build it up and so on and so forth.
But guess what, team, you're gonna have to change how you record. You're gonna have to change how you talk. You can't do any of that stuff or I'm gonna have to edit it.
But you're gonna have to help me out because I've got to leave something in that's pretty cool as an intro. Sorry, that's just not how we do it. After 300 episodes in July, as you said, maybe someone's losing the job.
So again, it feels, Danny, it feels a little bit square peg, round hole.
Not just at one level, but it feels like the more you dig into the granularity of what makes a podcast, every facet of podcasting faces challenges with video.
Danny Brown:Yeah, I'm also curious how long Spotify will keep pushing it if it doesn't take off the way they're hoping and they're expecting it to take off. You know, you think back to the.
John, you mentioned about exclusive and people will always go for the big names and offer them bigger deals because they've got that fall and that name recognition, that person recognition, brand recognition.
But then obviously a lot of the exclusives went away from Spotify because they were finding that the audience wasn't quite following them over from Apple or YouTube or whatever. The audience would be preferring to listen or watch them.
So I'm kind of curious if Spotify will do something similar where if they're not seeing the results that they're hoping to see and bringing creators across that have got large audiences to be exclusive on the Spotify partner program, for example, does that then. I mean, Spotify said video for five years now, 20, 20, I think when they first started pushing it.
Apple had it back in:That's the one with 4, 5% of the overall podcasts that they have on Spotify after five years. Now, obviously given the rolling, really starting to push it as of last year. So it may be something.
But yeah, I'm wondering if this whole push and all the money that has to be put into it and the money that Spotify has to pay out to the partner program, if they've got these large numbers, etc. Does it make it harder for Spotify to continue?
Then everybody, as you mentioned, John, everybody that's now put budget into video podcasts and especially because Spotify is going to pay extra on the partner program, does that all come crashing down? So I don't know.
But it's like I do feel this is like we've talked about this could be one of these times when the industry has that, you know, not, not, not coming to Jesus or whatever moment, but just a sort of reckoning. Because that sounds really bad too. You know what I mean?
It's just like is this where the industry has a proper conversation about what it means to be a podcaster and what that looks like?
John McDermott:I'm wondering as AI gets better and better and better and I know AI is the devil. I'm very, very pro using AI for podcasting. I keep hoping and it might come out today. We're not that far from it.
Will somebody make a one button click solution where let's say we take the audio from this and there's three cartoon avatars of us and the AI makes the video.
And it's good enough for the YouTube algorithm that maybe we can get some more discovery there without spending on a video set or spending four hours editing it. But it's better than just cover art and a static image. Maybe the algo would like that a little better. I could see that coming.
And then that would be a case for, quote unquote, video podcasting. But again, we're back into the what's a podcast as rss. I believe in Jimmy Buffett theory.
And what I mean by that is Jimmy used to stream all his concerts live on YouTube. Right. But I'll just watch him on YouTube. Why should I go see him live? Because you became a bigger fan and you were just into it and I was a big.
Still am, a big Jimmy Buffett fan. I didn't sit there every night watching a Jimmy Buffett concert, even though they were there.
But when he came to town, oh, I sure went because I was a big fan. So sure. Be on YouTube, be on standard RSS, be on Spotify. Going behind a walled garden. That didn't even work for Joe Rogan, apparently. Right.
Mark Asquith:I think people worry about that walled garden. Maybe we'll get you back on for this one as well, Jon. I think there's a big topic here.
We're going to wrap up in a second on this because we've got some stupid stuff to get to, which is always fun.
But I think the walled garden fear is, I don't want to say blown out of proportion, because I think that does a disservice to a lot of people in the industry that I think it would be disrespectful to say that, but I think as a creator, there's less to worry about.
The new think, and that might be naive in five years time, that might bite me in the ass, but I just feel like that part of it's a little bit blown out of proportion. For now, maybe we'll get on. We'll. We'll get you back on for that one, John, because I bet you've got a pile of good stuff on that.
John McDermott:Appreciate it.
Mark Asquith:I love that. Danny, shall we do something stupid, then?
Danny Brown:Why not? That was a good radio voice. I'm gonna do that again. That's gonna be my sound bite. Why not? Stupid stuff in podcasting.
Mark Asquith:The very first stupid stuff in podcasting is Danny Brown's brand new radio voice, Discus. No, It's a wonderful radio voice. That was actually the least Scottish I've ever heard. You eighth. I, I don't want to say this, but my stupid stuff is.
I think the LinkedIn Bros. I think they've moved to Facebook groups. I think they've moved to Facebook group. So I was, I was browsing Facey B for our, our.
We've got a little Facebook group over there for captivators and scrolling the feed and it's still happening. It is still happening. There was one. It's one of the groups where you can pretty much do what you want.
Like, there's not that much moderation on it, which sort of scares me to death. But there was one post on there and it was someone saying, is anyone up for a review swap? Let's boost everyone's discovery.
Let's boost everyone's rankings. And at the same time, why don't we give each other a little follow on Instagram X or Facebook? Here's my page link. Is anyone up for it?
Now, the sad part of it is that was the post with like 200 comments because everyone flocked to it. And it's. It made my skin a little, a little tingly because it drives me mad.
You're gonna get a load of ratings and reviews on Apple podcasts that will do nothing for the, for the charts whatsoever. It might increase a little bit of click through, like if I'm being really optimistic and then you're gonna gain.
Let's assume all those 200 people follow you on Instagram. Oh, that's cool. I've got a Star wars podcast. Look at all these people that don't like Star Wars. Brilliant.
There's only going to be a percentage that do and they're not going to listen to the show.
winds me up. And here we are,:John, I rant about this all the time, man, but this, it is not going away. It is not going away.
John McDermott:I think part of that too is there are snake oil salesmen who, you know, print these articles on how to increase your download numbers and it's all, you know, rate and review and all this advice that isn't actual. So I think you run into that as well.
Mark Asquith:Danny, do you want to join? Go around and just, you know, be up on some people and I could tell them I'm Sending the boys round.
Danny Brown:Yeah, it's like the old Daisy Twitter. Remember there used to be a lot of tweet groups where you'd have these private community groups or whatever.
And everybody said, okay, when this comes in, there used to be a third party tool called Triber. I don't know if you remember that at all.
No, it was like basically a whole bunch of you joined this tribe, Triber, Triber thing and you set up on auto default, auto post.
So anytime someone shares a blog post or whatever, that would new article, whatever narcissist feed would jump into your queue and you just like auto publish to your feed and you get 100 people with 100 posts all in five minutes, just spamming the heck out of, you know, the feed. Because these articles have all popped in, they've all set their default time.
So yeah, it's like you say, Apple themselves says that reviews do not help you when it comes to search and charts, etc. Sure, it can look good and it can maybe encourage some new listeners because they look at a podcast, it's got one review versus one, it's got 100.
Chances are the one with 100 is going to be the better listen. Hopefully if they're all valid reviews. But yeah, at some point you have to just wake up and say, why are you still doing this?
Why are you still doing this? Stop, stop, stop.
John McDermott:Danny just reminded me, remember about a year and a half there was something on Twitter where we were all supposed to take our podcast and push the button on the bottom of the app and do live rooms. That was a thing. And there was some other app for two weeks. Remember that Gold Rush? How's that going?
Mark Asquith:Yeah, yeah. Let's get on Clubhouse, everyone. That was a dead. Do you remember Blab, John? Did you ever get on Blab? It was like this.
So it was, it was, it was, it was this community sort of room based audio and it was video as well. And you could go live and then you could connect it to like Twitter when that did live, like with Periscope and all that stuff.
But what was really cool about it is they bought one of the original local recording pieces of software in podcasting. I can't remember the name. There was a girl called Hannah that worked from that.
We met at podcast movement in:But then they got bought by one of these flash in the pans and disappeared.
I don't know, it just made me think of it when you said that about Clubhouse, because I was like, man, if they'd have hung on to that, we would all be using it because they were so ahead of the curve. I don't know, that's. That's a bit of history. But yeah, Blab. Do you remember that, Danny?
Danny Brown:I remember the name. I never used that. I think it was more a North American thing, mate. Was it? But you, you're not North American. You used it.
So I don't know, maybe I was.
Mark Asquith:Just like bandwagon back then. I was like, gotta buy an entrepreneur book. $97. Yeah, no thanks. Remember those days? Anyway, sorry, I'm getting old. I'm rambling on.
I get on about stupid stuff and it just, you know, it takes over my world. But John, I know you listen to the show and it's. It's always nice to finish on positivity, so you get the honor, my friend of the flattering ram.
John McDermott:I'd like to spotlight Dave and Dave Unchained, two guys from Long Island. Once a month they do a four and a half hour show about the band Van Halen. And it's. That's old school podcasting.
Just two guys that are a fan of a band and they talk about the show and that's a band that's not active. Maybe some of the spin offs are. And they get four and a half hours of content. They do a mailbag and it's not the best produced show.
You know, I could nitpick the audio left and right all day, but it's two guys doing a podcast and isn't that great? Dave and Dave Unchained.
Mark Asquith:I am so in for that podcast. Dave and Jen. Dave Unchained.
I'm actually going to subscribe to that basically because my love of guitar rock and the dirtiest opening riff ever ain't talking about love. That guitar sound is filth. So I am so in for that. That is. That is awesome. Danny, are you a Van Allen fan?
Danny Brown:I am. I'm a huge Van Halen fan. I saw them live at the Monsters of Rock festival in Donington park in the uk.
Mark Asquith:Yeah, with Bon Jovi and the Scorpions.
Danny Brown:Jovi, Scorpions. Wasp was there. Wasp?
Mark Asquith:No way. Crazy.
Danny Brown:I didn't see the maiden. One maiden was there afterwards. But yeah, I'm all over like metal hair. Rock, that kind of stuff and like Dave and Dave. Is it Dave Lee Roth?
I'm guessing it's not Dave Lee Roth.
John McDermott:No, it's just two guys named Dave.
Danny Brown:Awesome. Yeah, I'll be looking. I'll be checking that out. I've opened it up in my browser already to ready check it out.
Mark Asquith:Oh man, this is awesome. Well, Danny, now I know that. And John, you know, I mean you sound like you like your. Your guitar based hair rock as well. Is that.
Would that be fair to say?
John McDermott:I'm straight out of the 80s. Everything about me is stereotypical 80s.
Mark Asquith:When next time I come stateside and I'm anywhere near you, we're gonna go get some filth guitar insiders and see what's what because that's going to be a good day. I love that it's rare to meet someone in podcasting apart from Dave Jackson that loves hair metal. So I'm in for this. This is perfect.
All right, team, we are going to stick a pin in it for in and around podcasting this week. Will video kill the podcasting star or is the death of podcasting greatly, greatly, greatly overreaction? Well, we'll see.
I think later this year we might do a follow up to this one. Maybe we'll do at the end of the year, John, and sort of do a look back. Could be quite interesting.
But let us know what you think at in around podcast over on X. Just let us know what do you think about this topic.
Remember to tell your friends we are on all the walled gardens but we're also on all the places where open podcasting exists. So wherever you listen, wherever your friends listen, if they're interested in the podcasting industry, do let them know that we exist.
And John, it's been a real pleasure. I think we've. We could probably talk forever. I think we'll certainly be doing more of this if you're game for it. But thank you so much.
Really appreciate it.
John McDermott:This is a lot of fun. Thanks for having me.
Mark Asquith:Always, pleasure. Always a pleasure. And Danny, thank you for. You're actually the brains and the brawn behind the scenes of in and around podcasting. So thanks for.
Thanks for making the show all it is, dude.
Danny Brown:It's.
Mark Asquith:It's good to be back recording brains.
Danny Brown:I know she didn't say the looks either. I was hopefully go for the trilogy there, but I will leave that one with you, mate.
Mark Asquith:We aren't a video podcast, mate, so no one would trust what I said, would they?
Danny Brown:That is true.
Mark Asquith:All right, beauties, thank you so much. It's been a real pleasure. We will see you on the the next episode. And remember, just keep doing what you do.
Keep sharing your voice, because it matters to those out there that follow you. We'll see you next time.